**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri July 26 19:03:59 2002
<DC> Today we have a special interview with a core
member of the IIP - Invisible IRC Project with us.
First, can you please explain to us what the Invisible IRC Project
<0x90> The Invisible IRC Project is the first attempt at
an anonymous/pseudonymous distributed network utilizing a peer 2
peer model with security and privacy as the top priority. We want
to provide full real time communications, intelligent
neural-networking, and develop the highest standards in security
that can be delivered on the Internet. All the while maintaining
the efficiency and seamlessness of an instant communication
The Invisible IRC Project is based on a framework and
technological ideal called: invisibleNET. The theory behind it is
that you can't attack what you can't see. If the private key
locations are unknown even to the users and servers, and everyone
else, how will you obtain them or even have a target to attack?
This sums up many of the project's theories.
<DC> Those are some bold goals. What is your role is in
the IIP project?
<0x90> I am the creator, and one of the architects. While
I am introducing myself, I would like to thank everyone that has
contributed to the project. None of this would even be possible if
not for all of the contributions and amazing effort from IIP's
development team. I would also like to recognize each and every IIP
user - it's you guys that keep thing going strong. Thank you all so
<DC> How long has this project been active and what led
up to you putting concrete effort into actually starting the
<0x90> Well, actually, funny thing, I dreamt this up in
October(2001), and said "okay, let's do this", wrote up some quick
code, sent a request for help on Freenet, and there we go. What led
up to this was my desire for instant communication with other
Freenet users to talk about Freenet issues, and exchange Freenet
keys while still maintaining anonymity, privacy and security. (I am
a security buff. I do this for a living too.)
<DC> How many other people are involved with the
project at this point?
<0x90> Let's see, it varies, but on a good day, about 6 to
7 people. There are 2 core developers, UserX and I.
IIP also demonstrates a sociological aspect. We have great
support from users and developers alike to help propel this project
move toward final stages.
It's not there yet, but everyone is trying in any way they can
to contribute, and that's a beautiful thing. It's neat, because I
joke about this, but ego is left at the login prompt :) We don't
see that much with this project because we all know it's just a
great project and this has been needed for a long time, but we
couldn't quite do it by ourselves, so here it is. We all get
together and create something so important.
Even the non-coders have found ways to contribute through
graphics, web design, documentation, promotion, monetary
contributions, and just using the network. All of this is a big
So in a sense IIP is doing it's job even at the beginning
stages. It's not just where it's going technologically, but also
the effect it can have with the users on a personal level too. It's
about creating a smaller world where everyone learns about the
choices they have... the option of no controls, and free speech.
It's a neat lesson for all.
<DC> Why do you feel motivated to even create such
systems? Why do you feel we need this technology? What is the
motivation of IIP?
<0x90> Freedom, liberty, openness. We can't get there
without building a highway to it. I'm not an extremist. I don't ask
for much, except that we practice common sense. I am a big
supporter of Internet privacy and I'm a security fanatic. My
motivation is the challenge, honestly. Seeing it be done and
watching people use it.
I am inspired to change the way we use the Internet. Pushing it
further. Delivering what is needed. I believe in a system where we
won't need IIP at some point. Where we don't have to worry about
privacy, because we all decided to be open... with no more secrets.
But that's too utopian. So reality hits me and I say "okay, let's
do the best we can". So along comes IIP, a right step in the
direction towards change.
I believe most people want this technology so they can express
themselves freely. It's a comfortable feeling when you know you can
do that. At the same time we can conquer some of the problems seen
within the Internet by changing the way security and privacy is
viewed, as well as the extent to what it is valued.
<DC> What language is the Invisible IRC Project system
written in, and what platforms does it run on currently?
<0x90> The core code is written in ANSI C. It runs on
Linux/Freenix (that is BSD based), including OpenBSD, NetBSD, BSDI,
FreeBSD, OSX, and Windows. We are currently making efforts to have
it ported to Mac-OS 9.
<DC> In your CodeCon speech in early 2002, you
mentioned that you were inspired to do Invisible IRC Project while
frustrated with the day long delays of messaging using the Freenet
system. Can you tell us how Freenet influenced the start of the
Invisible IRC Project?
<0x90> Well, I was thinking, hmm... This system (Freenet)
has potential to really be something innovative. The idea of
distributed technology has been talked about for years and it is
really nice to see it be actively developed and tested. Plus, it's
utilization for privacy, and anti-censorship - amazing... Freenet
is used for large volume, low speed, static content. Unfortunately
that doesn't do too well for messaging and communication. I
thought, hey, these people would probably love to exchange Freenet
keys and chat about this while maintaining the same anonymity, and
privacy (anti-censorship as well). The combination of the two would
probably be handy. So Invisible IRC Project, at first thought, was
designed to compliment Freenet.
<DC> What aspects of the Freenet architecture and
protocols can we see similarly implemented in the Invisible IRC
<0x90> Even though they appear similar, when speaking of
how messages are delivered and packaged etc., the architecture is
not much alike.
Although the routing design is peer to peer and distributed, at
this time the systems on Invisible IRC Project are a bunch of
forwarders. In the fully distributed autonomous version of
Invisible IRC Project the routing will be closer to Freenet's. Even
then, it will not be at all similar, because the high speed, low
volume, dynamic content messaging that Invisible IRC Project
Freenet doesn't require chaffed traffic, or have any concern for
real time interaction. Instead it is date based. We plan to
attribute micro amounts of time delay in there, what we call
quantized blocks. This will be determined by network channels based
on speed and traffic flow.
If there is a lot of communication on a channel the blocks will
be grouped faster. If it's slower, the time delay can be postponed
The similarity with Freenet really is the word "distributed",
and the "peer 2 peer infrastructure". Other than that, the design
can't really share too many of the same aspects - this is strictly
in regards to IRC and instant messaging.
<DC> We understand that the Invisible IRC Project is
operational now, but have heard some talk about a future project
called the Invisible Internet Project, Can you please tell us
something about that?
<0x90> The Invisible Internet Project: Defined as the "New
Internet". Peer 2 Peer Internet. Using your peers to protect you.
It is a similar concept to the Invisible IRC Project, with it's
design as our test model. We plan to re-design the Internet by
taking it a step further and having security and privacy be first
The Invisible Internet Project or Protocol will be utilizing the
tests and research/development concepts of the Invisible IRC
Project to give us the scalability that we need and leverage this
to take it to the next level.
This, in essence will be an impenetrable neural-network, that is
self-driven, self-defensed, and completely seamless to already
applied protocols, specifically client to server (or agents as I
call them). It will be THE next transport layer, a layer on top of
the notoriously insecure Internet, to deliver full anonymity,
privacy, and security at the highest level possible. Decentralized
and peer to peer Internet, by the way, means no more worrying about
your ISP controlling your traffic. This will allow you to do
seamless activities and change the way we look at security and even
the Internet, utilizing public key cryptography, IP steganography,
and message authentication. The Internet that should have been,
will be soon.
<DC> This sounds like an Internet within the
<0x90> It will be using the already existing TCP/IP layer
that we use for the Internet, yes. It would be pointless to
re-invent the entire wheel, but at some point, you never know, we
may decide to hit that up too. <chuckle> Essentially this
will protect client to client communication on the public
Everyone is a peer and that's the way it will be, locations will
be non-existent in a geographical sense.
<DC> Will users need to use special modified
application software? (I assume not, as we are all using our choice
of unmodified IRC clients for the current IIP system.)
<0x90> No sir. We will design virtual interpreters for
regular applications and down the road it will just re-write your
normal Internet routing table and your applications will behave as
normal. As we get to that low level, the most you might require,
unfortunately from Windows is a reboot because of the device driver
we might have to install. Sorry Windows users. With funding we will
maintain Mac OS 9 users as well, as we have to outsource that.
Linux/Freenix will also of course have full support.
<DC> Many current anonymizing systems work one way,
browsers OUT to the world. Will the Invisible IRC Project also
support me running my webserver on my machine, and other Internet
services, in this geographically non-existent space?
<0x90> Yes, but we won't call them servers, we will call
them agents. There are still details to be mapped out, but all of
this will be possible.
<DC> You have been quoted as calling the Invisible
Internet Project "an intelligent, self adapting, self defending
network", can you please explain to us what you meant by
<0x90> The project is modeled after many of the structures
and principles found in anatomy and physiology. The miracle that is
the human body is self-adapting, self-defending, and intelligent.
This neural network will be too as it grows with the intelligence
of the people behind it, this will add their growth to it and it
will demonstrate it's intelligence, through redundancy, routing,
detection of attacks, etc. It will have a "mind of it's own" shall
we say. It will even be able to vote. ;)
<DC> What kind of ideas do you have about well
fortified enemies of freedom, mounting massive attacks on P2P
networks, such as DDOS, flooding, grief nodes, and the like. How
does IIP intend to handle these grief players who have nothing
better to do but try and cause trouble and whom have loads of cash
to do it with?
<0x90> Well cryptography and peer to peer distributed
security have one thing in common - finance. If you can overwhelm
your opponents, even big money can't take out the world without
everyone against the world. So it's how many good guys versus how
many bad guys.
There is also the influence that this network will have: the bad
guys will realize that this can also protect their assets as well
as hinder. Which the Internet is already doing anyway, hindering
that is, so they would be wiser to accept it on a technical aspect.
You may be able to disrupt a few nodes, but I can't imagine, (with
the rapid growth of this network) that it would be invulnerable to
these type of attacks on the network as a whole.
Hence good and bad may dissipate and lose its definition on this
As well the self-defending aspect of the nodes will detect DOS
attacks and close themselves for defending your computer as first
priority, and initiate jobs to other nodes. We also have a knock
knock protocol, it firewalls everyone else. That will be a major
key to the defense of this network and the nodes.
<DC> This really sounds like the best of p2p all
around. How long until the Invisible Internet Project will be up
and running? How much work still needs to be done?
<0x90> Lots, but we're productive. ;) In the next 3 months
we're hoping to go decentralized on the Invisible IRC Project.
After that, time will tell.
[Editor: This ends part one, the general overview. Continue with