**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri July 26 19:03:59 2002

<DC> Today we have a special interview with a core member of the IIP - Invisible IRC Project with us.

Welcome 0x90
First, can you please explain to us what the Invisible IRC Project is?

<0x90> The Invisible IRC Project is the first attempt at an anonymous/pseudonymous distributed network utilizing a peer 2 peer model with security and privacy as the top priority. We want to provide full real time communications, intelligent neural-networking, and develop the highest standards in security that can be delivered on the Internet. All the while maintaining the efficiency and seamlessness of an instant communication system.

The Invisible IRC Project is based on a framework and technological ideal called: invisibleNET. The theory behind it is that you can't attack what you can't see. If the private key locations are unknown even to the users and servers, and everyone else, how will you obtain them or even have a target to attack? This sums up many of the project's theories.

<DC> Those are some bold goals. What is your role is in the IIP project?

<0x90> I am the creator, and one of the architects. While I am introducing myself, I would like to thank everyone that has contributed to the project. None of this would even be possible if not for all of the contributions and amazing effort from IIP's development team. I would also like to recognize each and every IIP user - it's you guys that keep thing going strong. Thank you all so much.

<DC> How long has this project been active and what led up to you putting concrete effort into actually starting the project?

<0x90> Well, actually, funny thing, I dreamt this up in October(2001), and said "okay, let's do this", wrote up some quick code, sent a request for help on Freenet, and there we go. What led up to this was my desire for instant communication with other Freenet users to talk about Freenet issues, and exchange Freenet keys while still maintaining anonymity, privacy and security. (I am a security buff. I do this for a living too.)

<DC> How many other people are involved with the project at this point?

<0x90> Let's see, it varies, but on a good day, about 6 to 7 people. There are 2 core developers, UserX and I.

IIP also demonstrates a sociological aspect. We have great support from users and developers alike to help propel this project move toward final stages.

It's not there yet, but everyone is trying in any way they can to contribute, and that's a beautiful thing. It's neat, because I joke about this, but ego is left at the login prompt :) We don't see that much with this project because we all know it's just a great project and this has been needed for a long time, but we couldn't quite do it by ourselves, so here it is. We all get together and create something so important.

Even the non-coders have found ways to contribute through graphics, web design, documentation, promotion, monetary contributions, and just using the network. All of this is a big help.

So in a sense IIP is doing it's job even at the beginning stages. It's not just where it's going technologically, but also the effect it can have with the users on a personal level too. It's about creating a smaller world where everyone learns about the choices they have... the option of no controls, and free speech. It's a neat lesson for all.

<DC> Why do you feel motivated to even create such systems? Why do you feel we need this technology? What is the motivation of IIP?

<0x90> Freedom, liberty, openness. We can't get there without building a highway to it. I'm not an extremist. I don't ask for much, except that we practice common sense. I am a big supporter of Internet privacy and I'm a security fanatic. My motivation is the challenge, honestly. Seeing it be done and watching people use it.

I am inspired to change the way we use the Internet. Pushing it further. Delivering what is needed. I believe in a system where we won't need IIP at some point. Where we don't have to worry about privacy, because we all decided to be open... with no more secrets. But that's too utopian. So reality hits me and I say "okay, let's do the best we can". So along comes IIP, a right step in the direction towards change.

I believe most people want this technology so they can express themselves freely. It's a comfortable feeling when you know you can do that. At the same time we can conquer some of the problems seen within the Internet by changing the way security and privacy is viewed, as well as the extent to what it is valued.

<DC> What language is the Invisible IRC Project system written in, and what platforms does it run on currently?

<0x90> The core code is written in ANSI C. It runs on Linux/Freenix (that is BSD based), including OpenBSD, NetBSD, BSDI, FreeBSD, OSX, and Windows. We are currently making efforts to have it ported to Mac-OS 9.

<DC> In your CodeCon speech in early 2002, you mentioned that you were inspired to do Invisible IRC Project while frustrated with the day long delays of messaging using the Freenet system. Can you tell us how Freenet influenced the start of the Invisible IRC Project?

<0x90> Well, I was thinking, hmm... This system (Freenet) has potential to really be something innovative. The idea of distributed technology has been talked about for years and it is really nice to see it be actively developed and tested. Plus, it's utilization for privacy, and anti-censorship - amazing... Freenet is used for large volume, low speed, static content. Unfortunately that doesn't do too well for messaging and communication. I thought, hey, these people would probably love to exchange Freenet keys and chat about this while maintaining the same anonymity, and privacy (anti-censorship as well). The combination of the two would probably be handy. So Invisible IRC Project, at first thought, was designed to compliment Freenet.

<DC> What aspects of the Freenet architecture and protocols can we see similarly implemented in the Invisible IRC Project network?

<0x90> Even though they appear similar, when speaking of how messages are delivered and packaged etc., the architecture is not much alike.

Although the routing design is peer to peer and distributed, at this time the systems on Invisible IRC Project are a bunch of forwarders. In the fully distributed autonomous version of Invisible IRC Project the routing will be closer to Freenet's. Even then, it will not be at all similar, because the high speed, low volume, dynamic content messaging that Invisible IRC Project delivers.

Freenet doesn't require chaffed traffic, or have any concern for real time interaction. Instead it is date based. We plan to attribute micro amounts of time delay in there, what we call quantized blocks. This will be determined by network channels based on speed and traffic flow.

If there is a lot of communication on a channel the blocks will be grouped faster. If it's slower, the time delay can be postponed longer.

The similarity with Freenet really is the word "distributed", and the "peer 2 peer infrastructure". Other than that, the design can't really share too many of the same aspects - this is strictly in regards to IRC and instant messaging.

<DC> We understand that the Invisible IRC Project is operational now, but have heard some talk about a future project called the Invisible Internet Project, Can you please tell us something about that?

<0x90> The Invisible Internet Project: Defined as the "New Internet". Peer 2 Peer Internet. Using your peers to protect you. It is a similar concept to the Invisible IRC Project, with it's design as our test model. We plan to re-design the Internet by taking it a step further and having security and privacy be first priority.

The Invisible Internet Project or Protocol will be utilizing the tests and research/development concepts of the Invisible IRC Project to give us the scalability that we need and leverage this to take it to the next level.

This, in essence will be an impenetrable neural-network, that is self-driven, self-defensed, and completely seamless to already applied protocols, specifically client to server (or agents as I call them). It will be THE next transport layer, a layer on top of the notoriously insecure Internet, to deliver full anonymity, privacy, and security at the highest level possible. Decentralized and peer to peer Internet, by the way, means no more worrying about your ISP controlling your traffic. This will allow you to do seamless activities and change the way we look at security and even the Internet, utilizing public key cryptography, IP steganography, and message authentication. The Internet that should have been, will be soon.

<DC> This sounds like an Internet within the Internet?

<0x90> It will be using the already existing TCP/IP layer that we use for the Internet, yes. It would be pointless to re-invent the entire wheel, but at some point, you never know, we may decide to hit that up too. <chuckle> Essentially this will protect client to client communication on the public Internet.

Everyone is a peer and that's the way it will be, locations will be non-existent in a geographical sense.

<DC> Will users need to use special modified application software? (I assume not, as we are all using our choice of unmodified IRC clients for the current IIP system.)

<0x90> No sir. We will design virtual interpreters for regular applications and down the road it will just re-write your normal Internet routing table and your applications will behave as normal. As we get to that low level, the most you might require, unfortunately from Windows is a reboot because of the device driver we might have to install. Sorry Windows users. With funding we will maintain Mac OS 9 users as well, as we have to outsource that. Linux/Freenix will also of course have full support.

<DC> Many current anonymizing systems work one way, browsers OUT to the world. Will the Invisible IRC Project also support me running my webserver on my machine, and other Internet services, in this geographically non-existent space?

<0x90> Yes, but we won't call them servers, we will call them agents. There are still details to be mapped out, but all of this will be possible.

<DC> You have been quoted as calling the Invisible Internet Project "an intelligent, self adapting, self defending network", can you please explain to us what you meant by that?

<0x90> The project is modeled after many of the structures and principles found in anatomy and physiology. The miracle that is the human body is self-adapting, self-defending, and intelligent. This neural network will be too as it grows with the intelligence of the people behind it, this will add their growth to it and it will demonstrate it's intelligence, through redundancy, routing, detection of attacks, etc. It will have a "mind of it's own" shall we say. It will even be able to vote. ;)

<DC> What kind of ideas do you have about well fortified enemies of freedom, mounting massive attacks on P2P networks, such as DDOS, flooding, grief nodes, and the like. How does IIP intend to handle these grief players who have nothing better to do but try and cause trouble and whom have loads of cash to do it with?

<0x90> Well cryptography and peer to peer distributed security have one thing in common - finance. If you can overwhelm your opponents, even big money can't take out the world without everyone against the world. So it's how many good guys versus how many bad guys.

There is also the influence that this network will have: the bad guys will realize that this can also protect their assets as well as hinder. Which the Internet is already doing anyway, hindering that is, so they would be wiser to accept it on a technical aspect. You may be able to disrupt a few nodes, but I can't imagine, (with the rapid growth of this network) that it would be invulnerable to these type of attacks on the network as a whole.

Hence good and bad may dissipate and lose its definition on this network.

As well the self-defending aspect of the nodes will detect DOS attacks and close themselves for defending your computer as first priority, and initiate jobs to other nodes. We also have a knock knock protocol, it firewalls everyone else. That will be a major key to the defense of this network and the nodes.

<DC> This really sounds like the best of p2p all around. How long until the Invisible Internet Project will be up and running? How much work still needs to be done?

<0x90> Lots, but we're productive. ;) In the next 3 months we're hoping to go decentralized on the Invisible IRC Project. After that, time will tell.

[Editor: This ends part one, the general overview. Continue with part two]